Public Education Matters

Intro - Various members and students speaking 0:08
Public Education Matters. Public Education Matters. Public Education Matters because every student matters. Public Education Matters. Public Education Matters because it is the foundation of our democracy. Public Education Matters because we are stronger when we speak in one voice. Public Education Matters. Public Education Matters. Public Education Matters. Public Education Matters. This is Public Education Matters, brought to you by the Ohio Education Association.

Katie Olmsted 0:41
Thanks for joining us for this edition of Public Education Matters. I'm your host Katie Olmsted, and I'm part of the communications team for the Ohio Education Association's 120,000 members across the state. We've been hearing from educators across the state that they are seeing growing numbers of English Learners, also known in some districts as multilingual learners, joining their school communities. These are students from all over the world, and from right here in Ohio, who grew up speaking a language other than English in their homes, from Spanish to Somali, Mandarin to Malagasy, and every language in between - even Pennsylvania Dutch! All of these students count on their dedicated public school educators to help them acquire English language skills, so they can learn their everyday academic curriculum in English and thrive. A group of educators who serve English learners (or ELs for short) has formed OEA's EL cadre to provide support for each other and to advocate for their students. That advocacy is especially important right now, as the growing number of EL students puts even greater demand on EL teachers, who will often already had enormous case loads, and who already have had to fight every day for the resources and supports they need to serve their students well. So what do they need? What will it take to fully and effectively meet the growing demand for high quality EL services in our schools? What do we all really need to understand about all of this? To find out, we sat down with two EL Cadre members, Debbie Skarsten teaches seventh and eighth grade EL students at Ridgeview Junior High in Pickerington in central Ohio. And Helen Vassiliou teaches ELs at Adena Elementary School in Lakota Local Schools in Butler County. Take a listen to our conversation.

Katie Olmsted 2:47
Debbie Skarsten, Helen Vasilliou, thank you so much for joining us for this episode and such an important conversation about what we're seeing in the education landscape in Ohio right now. Let's start with the big picture question. What are you seeing in your home districts right now when it comes to English Learners?

Debbie Skarsten 3:09
This is Debbie. In my particular district, our population has increased significantly. My personal caseload is more than double what it was at this time last year. Just this year, my beginner class has already increased by more than 300% from the beginning of school this year.

Katie Olmsted 3:34
Wow. Helen, what are you seeing in Lakota Local Schools?

Helen Vassiliou 3:37
Similar to Pickerington, Lakota Local Schools has also seen an influx in the students. But we've also seen an influx and the need to hire certified licensed experienced ESL teachers who have professional development and instructional ELs. There's a great need for that for the first time in a very long time.

Katie Olmsted 3:38
Is that a function of having so many more learners that you need to serve? Or is it a function of just not having a necessarily deep pool of candidates going into the field?

Helen Vassiliou 4:11
I personally believe it's a little bit of both. For the first time, we're noticing that we need a group of highly trained professionals in this area to support the language and learning so that the students can have an equal playing field for the first time ever in our schools.

Katie Olmsted 4:28
Now, recently, there was a lot of headlines around a shortage of bilingual educators. To be clear, that's not the same thing as English Learner educators. In Ohio, my take away as a bilingual educator is a nice bonus and it helps when we're working with families. But that's not really the system that we're working with students as they're trying to acquire the English language. Is that correct?

Debbie Skarsten 4:55
This is Debbie. That is correct. It's a common myth that all EL teachers speak all these different languages. And we don't. Many of us are bilingual, but we service students from 10 or 15 different language backgrounds. It would be impossible for us to know all of those languages. What we are experts in is, is language acquisition. So we learn how to teach these students to speak and read and write and understand English. It is not our mission to educate them in their first language. And bilingual educators do that. They provide education in English and a second language. We provide education in English.

Katie Olmsted 5:51
And being able to receive that education in English is absolutely essential to understanding that content. One of the things I've been hearing from you, just in our earlier conversation was that it's not just EL teachers who need to be able to work with students who are English Learners. What do you need to see in your schools right now?

Helen Vassiliou 6:12
This is Helen. We first need to see administrators that understand federal laws regarding the protection of ELs and what they need to be successful in the classroom. We need definite professional development for content area teachers, so that our students have direct and open pathways to learning. You know, I mentioned and Debbie mentioned before, we need to be providing accommodations, modifications that equal the playing field for these students. You know, in essence, our goal is to use the students' current literacy and their primary language as leveraging to build English proficiency. You know, we're adding that. We need to make sure that our content area teachers understand and our administrators, our central office staff, our superintendents, anyone who is you know, in an organization, that language is not a disability. And an ESL instruction is not an intervention. It's an integral part of high quality tier one instruction.

Katie Olmsted 7:15
When you say things like tier one and federal laws, for people who are not really familiar with what that means, can you help explain that, break that down?

Helen Vassiliou 7:25
So as you know, the Supreme Court of the United States more than 40 years ago, in the case of, you know, Plyler vs. Doe, ensured that all children in the United States have an equal right to enroll, and participate in public education and public primary, elementary, high school without regard to their parents' or guardians' immigration status. So that right there protects students and under the Civil Rights Act, we have to make sure that we are providing the most appropriate education for these students, so that they can also not just be consumers of information in the classroom, but innovators and collaborators alongside their English speaking peers.

Katie Olmsted 8:09
And you did just bring up the immigration status. And I think that's something that gets brought into this conversation, honestly, unnecessarily given the federal protections that say, that can't be the deciding factor here. But you have those people who are like, Well, why are my tax dollars paying for people who aren't even here legally? I say, with giant air quotes, and in the most ridiculous way possible, I need you to see that because I know it's an audio only podcast. That's not my belief. I think a lot of those people would be very surprised to know that the vast majority of the English Learners that we serve in Ohio, are here legally. Many of them were born in Ohio.

Helen Vassiliou 8:52
Many of our - This is Helen - many of our students were born and raised in Ohio and have been in Ohio schools their entire education. They just hear and speak another language at home, which qualifies them for testing. And so a lot of them because of the lack of refinement in English acquisition, they qualify for services. So those kids are the kids that that we that we work with. However, I'd like to point out in a lot of districts such as mine, and in the state of Ohio, these students, these ELs that get that get spotlighted that get highlighted for their language abilities for testing are the kids that indeed are counting in our gap closure rating, because they count on how they perform on the state assessment that pertains to them, which is the OELPA (Ohio English Language Proficiency Assessment). So these kids are a lot of times their scores are bringing up entire districts' gap closure ratings.

Debbie Skarsten 9:54
This is Debbie. There was a period of time really not that long ago where our EL populations were significantly smaller, such that in many buildings or even districts, the population was not large enough to actually register or account in those categories. But that has changed. And one of the challenges that we face as educators is to educate the rest of our peers that these kids do count. We cannot ignore them. Their scores, as Helen indicated, can make or break our school district report card. And what many people also don't understand is that even after the students exit the English Learner Program, they're monitored for a period of years. And during that time, they are still counted in the English Learner category on that state report card. So it really behooves everyone in the district to pay attention to these students, because their numbers are great, and their needs are great. And they have the right to the same education that everyone else has.

Katie Olmsted 11:17
And I think that really hits it on the more fundamental level, the right to the same education that everyone else has. Because at the end of the day, doesn't matter what language you hear at home, these children are human, and they're counting on public education to fulfill their potential, to be the productive members of society that we want all of our children to be, to acquire those life skills, those critical thinking skills, all those things that we want for every single child -no exceptions. But Debbie, you also hit - Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Debbie Skarsten 11:49
No, I was just going to say, you know, history, American history is full of very successful, impactful people who were once upon a time EL students. Our current Secretary of Education was, once upon a time, an EL student. So these students grow up to be very productive, important contributing members to our society.

Katie Olmsted 12:15
But Debbie, you also mentioned something that I think we need to talk about, which is that they have needs as learners and we need to be able to meet those needs. I know this state recently did a cost study to look at what exactly it takes. And that was the whole point of the Fair School Funding Plan was to say, what does it actually take to provide a great education to every child in Ohio? I think I know the answer, but what happened with that cost study? Where did all that information go?

Debbie Skarsten 12:45
So this is Debbie again. So that cost study was commissioned by the Ohio legislature. And the Ohio Department of Education was tasked with carrying that out. They contracted with a company called WestEd. To conduct that study. And during that study, every school district in the state of Ohio that had at least one EL student had an opportunity to respond to a series of questions. Based on those questions, the WestEd people came up with recommendations for Ohio and suggestions for how much it costs to educate an EL student and also suggested caseload levels for EL teachers. To date, the legislature has not acted on that cost study. They have made no changes as a result of it, which is, which is very disappointing. There are many educators who are serving way more students than is recommended. A lot of people don't understand that we don't have caseload limits, like special education does, for example. They are only allowed to serve a certain number of students at any given time period, and we don't have any such restrictions. So Helen, I believe has well over 100 students on her caseload. Is that correct, Helen?

Helen Vassiliou 14:25
That is correct. Yes.

Debbie Skarsten 14:26
So that's not possible for us to do as effectively as we would like to, which also then circles back to the need for all of the classroom teachers to also have some understanding and willingness to help the students because we cannot be with them the entire school day.

Helen Vassiliou 14:47
Katie, the other thing - this is Helen - The other thing you know, Deb, touched upon a little bit earlier, our ELs in the state of Ohio are the most tested students in the state and in our districts. And for that reason, the WestEd cost study helped highlight nine recommendations that we need to take into account. But I would like really to push for the understanding that these English Learners need to be considered in the decision making, all the way from the top to the bottom. For example, the third grade reading guarantee and what the third grade reading guarantee does and does not do for ELs at the grade level. We have research that shows it takes seven to 10 years for ELs to catch up with their English speaking peers. But in third grade, they haven't even received so seven to 10 years of instruction. So, you know, all of that plays into it. The WestEd cost study really highlighted some recommendations that we should look at. It's time to look at how to be better for kids. And I think Deb and I together, that's something we really believe in.

Katie Olmsted 16:04
So what are some of these recommendations? What can we do right now? And what are some of the long term things that have to happen to ensure that we are providing the great public education that every child deserves?

Helen Vassiliou 16:19
Well, I'm going to mention the one that is, for me, integral, and that is having certified licensed teachers that are specifically going to teach this population of students, who receive ongoing professional development. That, for me, is a super important piece. The other important piece, I think that came out of WestEd was really about moving kids from being "those kids" to thinking about them as stakeholders, and having paraprofessionals and other mental health resources, those type of services available to kids. Deb, would you like to share a little bit more since you were a little bit more involved in the WestEd study?

Debbie Skarsten 17:08
This is Debbie. I would agree absolutely with with everything Helen said. It was called a cost study. It focused largely on okay, what is currently happening and what do we think needs to happen? And so there were specific recommendations about costs and about case loads. But there was also a heavy emphasis on, as Helen said, what, what kind of instruction these students are getting, how much instruction are they getting? And all of that comes back to staffing? You have to be staffed with licensed EL educators. And those educators have to have enough time with the students. They have to have proper materials and curriculum to work with these students. We are constantly tasked with, 'well, can you just help them do this?' Or 'I need you to finish this with them' or 'do that' or 'we're not going to do this, we need you to do that.' And it's an ongoing battle for us to be able to do the instruction that we are tasked to do. What many people don't understand is that we actually have EL learning standards. Just like math has learning standards, English Language Arts has learning standards, Social Studies has learning standards. We have EL learning standards that we are tasked with instructing our students in, and they are tested in the domains of reading, writing, speaking and listening. And the standards apply to all four of those domains. So we have a very specific job to do that is not tutoring, which is what many people think we do.

Helen Vassiliou 19:08
This is Helen. You know, Deb did hit upon, you know, the need for instructors and instruction. The other focus is yes, we do need instructors and instruction that is specific to this population. But also our students are held to the same testing standards as their classroom English speaking peers. So that needs to be stated and understood. But the West Ed cost study really talked about solid programming and supports that look like English learners receiving additional support from counselors and social workers, that talk about families of ELs, how they need to be supported by family liaisons and, and have further engagement through family and community events. And one of the biggest highlights was, there needs to be a number of district level administrative positions that support, that staff and support, school level English learner programs. That is a big need. A lot of times we are lumped into the other with no direction from anyone who is qualified, who has experience who has the advocacy to lead this group of students.

Katie Olmsted 20:26
The more I talk to you, the more I feel like this has become a bit of an acute crisis at this point. Is that just a general feeling now? Or is it reaching a crisis point with this influx of English learners and sort of this continued ignorance, I think would be the nice word, from administrators from the state, from all of these levels of decision making, that should be helping that aren't.

Debbie Skarsten 20:54
I think we're fast approaching that. The population has grown so quickly in the last few years. And some districts are working hard to try to keep up with that and do the right thing. And other districts are finding it a lot more challenging to address these needs. And there's no sign of these numbers decreasing anytime soon. So everybody involved, all stakeholders in the educational field, need to include an EL voice in all of their decision making. Oftentimes, we are left out of the conversation, or we are lumped together with special education, which is not what we are. And that is not the proper place for our voice to be addressed, because our needs are very different, although we do certainly have some students that are dual identified and fall in both categories. But EL needs to have a voice at the table. And that's it every single table.

Katie Olmsted 22:14
And you both are members of OEA's EL cadre. Does that help you have a bit more of a voice?

Helen Vassiliou 22:21
This is Helen. It does allow us to have a greater voice and a greater impact. For the first time ever, I've truly felt like coming together with other exceptional educators of the same population, with the same mindset, with the same focus, we can really support each other to make change in the state of Ohio. Not to quote, you know, Lin Manuel Miranda's "Hamilton," but it's an exciting time to be alive right now. Are the is there a crisis that could brew? Absolutely. But this is an integral moment to say, hey, federal legislators, thinking about what the governor can do in Ohio, what more we can do, what we can do better, I think it's exciting. The cadre has helped bring to the forefront some needs. The cadre has allowed us, as a team of educators, to direct conversations, to feed forward information and to reach back and to think about what we could do to improve instruction, planning, funding, even perceptions of of ELs. I would be lost without it, because I don't have that kind of a network where I am. So I'm very thankful for that, and my relationship with Deb, both as a professional and a friend. And it has led us to great things, even meeting you, Katie, and the work that you've done with us. So I thank you personally for all of what you've done for us.

Debbie Skarsten 22:22
This is Debbie. The cadre has been an amazing experience. I think the first time we all met, we were all sort of amazed that these are our people, where have they been? Why did we not know these people before? It's a group of people who are truly passionate about trying to improve things for EL students and their families and all the people who work with these students. You know, one of the things about the cadre is we all bring different levels of expertise and different experience situations. Like, Helen is super good with technology and she has her, she she finds a way into meetings that the rest of us don't get invited to, and she's not afraid to speak up and she's excellent at that. You know, I sometimes feel like I don't even know how I got on the cadre because I'm like the class idiot there but but it's - you know, I bring a completely different perspective because I teach these students but I've also parented these students because I have children through international adoption who were EL students when they arrived here. And so I see a totally different viewpoint on different issues than some people do. Helen and I have both been second language learners. And so that gives us, you know, a firsthand experience that not every EL teacher has, because we've been in that situation. So it's, collectively, I mean, there's so much wisdom in that group that if that could be modeled, it'd be priceless.

Debbie Skarsten 23:53
I do want to say, Katie, that the legitimacy of our jobs really came about through the cadre. You feel like you made an impact on what you do every day, and you would leave these meetings with this, this euphoric feeling of I can do this. And you know, I always ask myself two questions: Is it worth it? And, can I do it? And when I'm with the team, that's always a yes.

Debbie Skarsten 25:57
And we hope to do a lot of great things in the future. But we're, we're addressing one thing at a time. We are looking forward to presentations at the Ohio TESOL conference, and many of the other things that we are working on as a group.

Helen Vassiliou 26:15
And a possible publication in the future.

Katie Olmsted 26:18
Ooh, exciting. I am looking forward to that. And when I see it, assuming I see it, I will be checking back in with you because I will definitely want to talk to you about it then. Helen, Debbie, thank you so much for sitting down to talk to me today. Really a great conversation.

Debbie Skarsten 26:35
Thank you.

Helen Vassiliou 26:37
And thank you for having a spotlight on a great group of kids that deserve great educators in the state of Ohio.

Katie Olmsted 26:50
Our sincere appreciation to all of the EL Cadre members for all that they do, and we're not alone in wanting to show support for the education profession. Both the Cleveland Cavaliers and the Columbus Blue Jackets are once again hosting a series of Educator Appreciation Night games for OEA members this season. The Cavs just had the first of their two big games in October with discounted tickets and fan experiences for educators. The other big big night with the Cavs will be on March 8 against Minnesota when educators can enjoy even more fan experiences and the new Ohio Teacher of the Year will be honored on the court. Tickets are on sale now for that game, along with a number of other games where the Cavs are offering deals on tickets for educators throughout the 2023-2024 season. And the Columbus Blue Jackets are also offering ticket deals for educators. They have three games in December with the big Educator Appreciation Night game on December 16 against the New Jersey Devils. Educators will also get food and beverage credit CBJ swag, OEA swag, and a chance to try a postgame slapshot on the ice that night. More information about all of the educator appreciation night games with the Cavs and the Blue Jackets - And the links to purchase tickets to any of those - are in the show notes for this episode. And of course, while you're there, you should go ahead and like or subscribe to Public Education Matters wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a thing in the future. New episodes of Public Education Matters drop every other Thursday this season. And remember, you can connect with OEA anytime on social media. We're @OhioEA on Facebook, X and Instagram. Until next time, stay well. And remember, in Ohio, Public Education Matters

Transcribed by https://otter.ai