Public Education Matters

Transcription by http://otter.ai. Please excuse any errors.

Intro 0:07
This is Education Matters, brought to you by the Ohio Education Association.

Katie Olmsted 0:15
Thank you for joining us for this edition of Education Matters. I'm your host Katie Olmsted. And I'm part of the communications team for the Ohio Education Association, which represents 120,000. Educators statewide. Those educators are watching certain bills making their way through the Statehouse very closely. And when it comes to legislation like House Bill 616, a lot of educators are watching with horror. That's the newly introduced bill in Ohio that combines the worst parts of House Bill 327's divisive concepts, prohibitions with parts of Florida's so called Don't say gay law, and it has school librarians asking, will they have to remove important books from their shelves? And will they have to stop providing important opportunities for students to see themselves in the literature around them? We asked Courtney Johnson, a library media specialist at Fort Hays Arts and academic High School in Columbus City Schools to share her thoughts on House Bill 616. Courtney Johnson, thank you for taking the time to speak with us today. When you heard about House Bill 616 What did you think?

Courtney Johnson 1:29
Yeah. Well, thanks for having me. I thought 616 was like Florida's don't say gay Bill plus the anti CRT stuff that's been coming through our state house like together on steroids. Like that's that's what I that's what I kept saying like, it's you think Florida has the worst Bill you've ever heard of with the don't say gay bill in Ohio is like, Oh, we're gonna make one that's even worse.

Katie Olmsted 1:56
Ohio went hold my beer.

Courtney Johnson 1:58
Exactly. Absolutely.

Katie Olmsted 2:00
And, you know, this has far reaching implications across all of our schools. But there's a particular concern in our school libraries. What What can you tell me about that? Yeah, well,

Courtney Johnson 2:14
I think is the biggest concern for me with both parts of the bill. The I know that part of the don't say Gable part is really focused on like, little kids, right, pre K to three, I think. But then there's also like this whole idea of like, age appropriateness for everyone else,

Katie Olmsted 2:32
age appropriate and air quotes. It's an audio only podcast.

Courtney Johnson 2:35
Yeah, sorry. I use air quotes. That's right. And I just like what it makes me worry about in for Library's is just, what are what are we even going to be able to put on the shelves and share with students is so ambiguous and so far reaching? That I think that it is that makes it like, not that I want them to be like, specifically, like you can't have these words are something you know, it's all censorship, right? But it's just so ambiguous that I, it is just going to limit our collections. So in such a harmful way for students, you know, I just saw that recently in a school district here in Ohio and author who has a book about being a rainbow unicorn. Got his his he got disinvited from a school visit, because his book is has rainbows and unicorns, like really? Like? What, what's wrong with rainbows and unicorns? So that's the kind of thing that's happening, I think, because of these bills. And that's terrifying.

Katie Olmsted 3:43
Yeah, I mean, that. Part of this to me is that it's intentionally ambiguous so that everyone is just afraid and will censor themselves.

Courtney Johnson 3:53
Yeah, yeah. I worry about that, too. I just like, I can't think of a single book that couldn't be challenged for some reason under this bill, you know, like, it's like, they don't want us to have books at all.

Katie Olmsted 4:07
I mean, you say that as hyperbole, but maybe that's the truth here. Yeah.

Courtney Johnson 4:11
I mean, it's, it's really possible, you know, and there are just so many attacks on public education. And so, you know, from so like, from funding to, you know, curriculum, adding things, you know, unfunded mandates, all of these things, and I just can't believe that folks are worried that the books that kids are reading in schools are somehow you know, harming them or indoctrinating them. I mean, if my kid brings home a book, I'm like, Yay, my kids reading a book, you know, and not watching tick tock or YouTube or, or, you know, playing a video game where someone's trying to, you know, talk to them in some online community, like books or safe spaces for kids to explore. So many topics, and I get it if Family really doesn't want their kid reading about something that's up to families if they think a kid isn't ready for something, but this law is just such an insane overreach, I'm sorry to use the word insane, but it is a crazy overreach by by the our state house.

Katie Olmsted 5:21
And it does seem to ignore the enormous benefit of having a diverse school library. Let's spell it out for them. Why is it so important to have so many perspectives in the books that our students have access to?

Courtney Johnson 5:36
It's literally everything. So I always talk about this, there is a piece, a piece of theory, and I don't know if it's theory, but a piece from the early 90s, by Professor Emeritus from Ohio State, her name is Dr. Rudin, Sims, bishop, and she wrote this piece about books being mirrors, Windows and sliding glass doors for kids. So this idea that kids need to see themselves in books, so they don't feel alone so that they feel validated. That's all very important. So kids need to see families that look like there's relationships that look like there's problems that look like theirs. And then also kids need to see windows and sliding glass doors so that they can step into the lives of other folks, because we have, because it's an empathy builder, right? It's the idea that once we read a book about someone whose life was much different than ours, then we can have empathy for folks who, who look different than us who lives differently than us who love differently than us. And so there's really nothing as a as a librarian, more important to me than that collection development. So that every single kid in my library, and I'm a high school librarian, you know, that they have books that help prepare them for living in the world. And there is really something important about kids finding, being able to work through issues and problems and, you know, things that kids go through in the pages of a book. It's way better than, you know, than YouTube or, or tick tock, right. I mean, those things are valuable in their own ways. But, you know, reading about it is really a different, it's just gives you this whole new perspective, whether it's a story that's like you, or not like you, there's really, that's one of the most important parts of my job is making sure the collection is so diverse that every kid can find those mirrors and windows like Dr. Sims, Mitch have talked about.

Katie Olmsted 7:34
And I feel like you have a unique ability to see those windows in action because of the book club you host. I mean, that is a large group of kids. They come from different backgrounds, they look different. They have different relationships, all reading the same book together and discussing that and becoming critical thinkers and growing in their empathy. Let's talk about that experience for you. And what are they reading right now?

Courtney Johnson 8:01
Yeah. So right now we're reading a book called The Poetics, which has been challenged by lots of folks it is a novel in verse by a Dominican American woman named Elizabeth Acevedo, I will go on record here. I know this is being recorded and will be available for the rest of my life. It's my all time favorite young adult novel. So you've got me on record about that. It is an immune isn't. Is this the most beautiful, most poetic exploration of girlhood? You know, I'm thinking about this, this conversation I had the other day. So it's very interesting. There's there's parts in the book at the beginning, where CMR, the main character, she's, like, on the she's sitting on her stoop, and she's getting cat called, she gets cat called Bye, Bye, boys and men, quite a bit throughout the book. And I was reading it, I was in this smaller group of Book Club kids, and it was like four or five boys. And me and one girl, who was all that were there at the moment. And the boys were like, is it really that bad? And I looked at Jessica, my student who was in there, and I was like, Jessica, is it really that bad? And she was like, yes. And the boys were like, really? Like, I mean, we had this huge conversation about how it feels to be catcalled. What, you know what, what it makes you look like as a boy doing that. Right, which I don't think we would have had had we not read that, that book. That's, you know, and that's just like one little conversation from that book. So I think it helps them see, even though they've probably been told by girls, you know, to shut up or move on or whatever. It opened up a conversation. And the interesting thing is I was talking to one of my classmates, I'm in a Ph. D. program at Ohio State. And she they were reading this book with some I'm sorry, I was talking to one of my professors and she was reading it in a in a class with some undergrad. Graduates and the men, the male undergraduates had the same reaction. As my high school students. They were like, the women were really like identified with CMR being catcalled. And the men were like, really? It's that bad?

Katie Olmsted 10:13
Yes. On the record here for eternity. Yes, it is that bad. It absolutely is.

Courtney Johnson 10:19
And I've never been able to have that conversation. Like from from a news story, or, I mean, I was just like, oh my gosh, I mean, and they brought it up themselves, right? They didn't say like, Hey, let's talk about the cat calling that happens in the book. They were like, okay, like, this is really bad, right? And like, yes, it absolutely is. So that's what that's so for Jessica and me, the women that book was a mirror, right? Like we've been, we've had that experience, but for the for the boys. It was a window into like, how it might feel to be a girl and, and be catcalled like that. So that's

Katie Olmsted 10:53
it House Bill 616 passes. These conversations wouldn't happen. That book, you you're pretty sure wouldn't happen. The book club? Probably wouldn't happen. Yeah,

Courtney Johnson 11:04
I book club. Yeah, I have book club, like, the day after, you know, this. I think this bill was like, introduced on a Tuesday, and I have a club on Wednesday. So I think it was the very next day. And the kids were like, my kids are very active, like following laws and that kind of stuff, especially the Book Club kids, you know, they're just very, you know, interested in the world. And they were like, could we even read this book if this law passes? And I'm like, I don't think so. I don't think and they were talking about the other books. So the last book we read was, all boys aren't blue, which is a memoir by a queer, non binary black author named George M. Johnson. And they were like, Well, we sure couldn't read that one, right, because

Katie Olmsted 11:43
I just had a vision of it being set on fire by a book banners.

Courtney Johnson 11:48
Yeah. And it's interesting, because that book has been banned, or challenged all over the country. The all boys aren't blue one. And I showed students some of those clips of, of the author like talking about the ban, and when they're just like, Why does anybody wants to limit what we read? You know, like, this is this, this person's life, their experiences, and they're very familiar to a lot of kids. And and even if they're not, they can, at least, you know, imagine how hard it would be. And they just can't understand why anybody would say that kids can't, can't read these books and have these conversations.

Katie Olmsted 12:36
And I feel like you have a perspective that maybe some of the adults in the statehouse are missing here, where, again, audio only podcast, you should see how far her eyes just rolled into the back of her head. You are able to see for yourself how students handle the tough, the tough topics. They're not even that tough of topics. But you will see that, you know, a student reading about a non binary character doesn't turn a student nonbinary that yeah, that's absurd.

Courtney Johnson 13:05
It's absurd. I mean, I read about vampires when I was a kid and didn't turn me into a vampire. It's absolutely, like the craziest thing. I saw this tweet or something the other day that was like, you know, gay kids read about straight kids their whole lives knows I'm tired. I'm straight. You know, so? Yeah, this idea that, like, books are somehow grooming kids to to, I don't know, be what I don't, I don't even know what it could could turn you into,

Katie Olmsted 13:32
hopefully a better human and medical thinker. That's

Courtney Johnson 13:35
exactly, it is exactly the point. And I think it's, you know, again, like this in this particular like, state of the universe in time. The idea that kids bringing books home is somehow a problem for state for people in the state house. They've got to be so I'm just like, I wish they would come to my library for 10 minutes and just see, you know, what, you know, what, what kids are talking about what kids are reading about? What books are on the shelves? i They just they just obviously are so disconnected. They're so far removed. It's just it's maddening. I don't know what else to say. It's maddening. And it's it's just sad. It makes me sad that that that teachers and librarians and principals and you know, districts might might limit what what they buy for kids to read because of this bill. It's it's really devastating, honestly.

Katie Olmsted 14:40
And it comes back to that ambiguity issue that we were talking about, where I hope with every fiber of my being that our state lawmakers see sense and just throw this bill away before even bring it to a vote. It shouldn't get to a vote. It is that absurd. But without even passing without even knowing what the future holds. Does it change what you're going to order for your library?

Courtney Johnson 15:09
Yeah, so that's a really good question. And I do think that even if this bill goes away, poof goes away with Stranger things have happened, right thing? I mean, it could be it could be law, and it could poof, go away, right? We don't know. But what makes me worried about it is that even the conversations that we're having will make folks scared to purchase things or read things with kids, like the unicorn book, for example. And that's, that's a soft, a form of soft censorship, that that doesn't go away. Just when the bill goes away. It will not deter me because I, you know, I, I'm just I'm not to be deterred, right? I'm going by what I know is best for kids.

Katie Olmsted 15:54
But what if you're the reason your school loses funding? Yeah, yeah. So

Courtney Johnson 15:57
if the if the bill comes through, right, and it's like a law, then we've got a whole different situation on our hands. But I'm not I'm not scared, because the law because the bill exists to change what I do right now, I don't know how I can continue being a school library. And if this law exists, I mean, my kid goes to Hilliard, Darby High School, and there was a walkout last week on HB 616. My own child, he's a sophomore, and he walked out. Because I told him, you know, if you feel like you should, you should, this is how I feel about the law. If this law passes, I will probably have to, I will probably lose my job because I can't, I can't not buy these books for students. And I can't be the reason we don't get state funding. And it's really, it's tear, it's really honestly terrifying. Like, I feel like out of all the bills that have come through over the last 10 or so years, in the state of Ohio, this one really makes other than Senate Bill five, which was a bill that limited our collective bargaining rights, and we had to take it to a referendum and, and that bill really terrified me to that law really terrified me. And we had to fight really hard against it. To just protect what we already had. This one is like the next most terrifying one that I've seen come through to be quite honest, because it just limits everything I do every single day.

Katie Olmsted 17:23
And even if hospital 616 is dead in the water, there still House Bill 327 lurking in the wings. So it's everything minus the don't say gay provisions here. And, you know, hearing hearing the, one of the co sponsors of that bill, both sides, the holocaust of all things. I mean, we're looking in Texas, where we're seeing some mandate for a school library to have a copy of mine comp to balance out the Holocaust books there. What in the world?

Courtney Johnson 18:00
I mean, honestly, I, you know, I'm really not trying to be hyperbolic about it. I'm trying to keep keep it perspective. But that is terrifying. I mean, there are no there are not two sides to the Holocaust, right? There are not two sides to slavery. There are not two sides to Jim Crow, like, you know, like, and that's, that's just the, those are facts, right. I mean, one side was wrong, and illegal and terrible and harmful. And all of these things. And, you know, I guess if a family wants their kid reading about that side, they can find that book on their own, but it's not something we're going to have in the school library because it's harmful and damaging. Um, so yeah, that that's that yeah, when honestly, when she said that, about the Holocaust, I was like, Oh, this bill is dead in the water because I felt like she like showed exactly what it was about, and no one would think that was okay.

Katie Olmsted 18:52
But it's a hydrogen. We that head got chopped off. And here's the new more terrible one.

Courtney Johnson 18:57
Absolutely. That's exactly why I think they added the don't say gay part is because, you know, because of that, that context with the Holocaust. And people were like, Oh, that doesn't make sense, right? Like, No, that can't be. So now let's add this, where we're talking about little kids, you know, learning about gender identity, which is, you know, there are ways to teach children about gender and sexuality from the time they're little so that we don't have kids harming themselves or afraid to be who they are by the time they get to middle and high school. It's so important that we that we talk about inclusive families and inclusive folks right from the time they're little so that so that we don't have this hatefulness happen and we know that you know, as students get older and in the middle on high school, you know, things it's identity start to form and develop and it can be really scary and, and dangerous and harmful for kids to not don't see themselves reflected in a book or in curriculum, or, you know, in any of the conversations that happen. It's, it's, you know it, we have to be doing this work. And there are ways to do it with little there are so many scholars that have put in the work to say, these are healthy, helpful, loving ways to show kids that not everybody is exactly the same. And that's a beautiful thing.

Katie Olmsted 20:27
And that's the thing. I mean, I have a three year old and my three year old knows not everyone's the same my three year old is, is a beautiful accepting human being because the people around him are are different people, and he loves that. And if my three year old can get it, a third grader can get it. And a 30 year old can get it and a no state lawmaker can get that. That's absolutely

Courtney Johnson 20:48
right. I just I feel like they just they just don't want to. It's just, it's just a way to divide. Divide folks. Right, and, and to and to win elections. I mean, it's just all about remaining in power, and winning these gerrymandered seats that they're all sitting in. And, you know, they really don't care if they cared about kids in schools, they would fix our unconstitutional school funding model. If they cared about kids in schools, they would make sure kids have the mental health supports they need in schools, if they cared about kids in schools, they would take away all this testing that kids have to do constantly. If they cared about kids in schools, they they might even like step foot in a school and see what's happening, and see how brilliant and resourceful and resilient young people are and that they deserve. Books that that read that that reflect the world that they live in.

Katie Olmsted 21:48
If they cared about kids, they would give more books, not take them away.

Courtney Johnson 21:52
Absolutely. They would say, oh, every school has a certified school librarian and a robust, diverse, inclusive collection. That's what they would do if they cared about kids, but they don't care about kids. They care about getting reelected and keeping their seats. And I know that's very political. But I 1,000% believe that and these I mean, it's no it's no coincidence that these laws are copycat laws from state to state, right? We know that this is not something that the Ohio lawmakers are like, Man, this is a real problem in Ohio, we really need to take care of it. This is happening in states where, where the GOP has majority or supermajority control. And it's absolutely devastating. Imagine being a queer kid, or a queer family. And having this be a debate about whether or not you can be represented in your school library.

Katie Olmsted 22:44
Whether you're valid and whether your lived experience is it exists, it's Yeah, insane. Or imagine

Courtney Johnson 22:51
or imagine being a student, a student of color or a black kid, and you know, them saying that we can't have books that depict the black experience. i It makes absolutely no sense that anybody thinks that's a that's a fair thing to do.

Katie Olmsted 23:06
Well, we're all still trying to make sense out of any of this, and I appreciate you taking the time and adding your perspective.

Courtney Johnson 23:14
Yeah, thanks for having me.

Katie Olmsted 23:18
Make sure you check out the Episode notes for this podcast. Courtney shared a link for a service that sends books to queer kids that reflect their own lives. If you're interested in learning more about that. You'll also find the links to subscribe to Education Matters wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a thing. Next week, we're hearing from the president of the Buckeye local Classroom Teachers Association, about what it took to win nearly $200,000 in back pay for that district's 150 or so teachers this year. Until next time, stay well.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai